I just wondered, the tactics posted quite often show remarkable results for a single season. But wondered if anyone had tested any of them more long term to see if they brought them long term success, or to see if the AI in the game combats the tactics eventually somehow, eventually FMing you?
The game doesn't learn to combat tactics.
What happens is you come across different assigned tactics to different AI managers & those along with the strength of their players will beat your chosen tactic in some way.
Your players' morale then drops perhaps & they start making bad decisions which effect more results.
Let's take Arsenal as an example, they could be poor tactically under one AI manager but then another comes in & that manager's tactics fit their current squad better and they suddenly become really good. They then buy some good players for that system (Which is more by luck then judgement as AI buying & selling is way worse than the match engine) and they become very very good.
It's called the flow of the game.
I do believe opponents change their approach depending on their assessment of your team - if you start out as a underdog, the opponent will have one approach. A couple of seasons later, you might be the big dog - the opponent might be defensive.
Also, your team tend to change. New players fitting better or worse for your tactic.
Potentially, yes. You are certainly judged as more of a threat by the AI if you win more. This is nothing to do with learning a tactic, this is the flow of the game.
If you are winning more than it stands to reason the oppo will be more wary of you and build to combat you accordingly. It's common sense. What you have to do is adjust to their adjustments, you re-invent yourself changing what you deem necessary to stay ahead of the pack.
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I dont understand how you can play with 1 tactic all season.
I change my tactics a lot.
depending on many things, players available, cup or league, home or away, weather conditions (some players are really bad in the rain or really hot weather)
can i ask what tactic you use for all season?
I used Beowulf for my first season at Lazio. However have switched to Fire and water.
I use my own tactic in Sweden for 5 seasons, getting to prem with Linkoping. Then took over at Gotheberg, won 3 titles in 5 years. But in last season and a half used Bad company. I switched because of interest more than necessity, but when your winning you wan't to keep winning, so just thought why change what isn't broken.
Switched to Beowulf at Lazio as they were predicted 10th and had finished 12th prev season before I took over.
Someone pointed or when I posted bout using Beowulf that Lazio are a top side and that Beowulf was for underdogs.i finished 3rd. So when they started touting me for the title I believed the hype and switched to a tactic to Fire and water. And have really struggled. So I feel that Lazio have had a change in rep, and should adapt accordingly?
So in answer to your question, (sorry long winded) I did used to adapt for every game, and am going to be going back to doing so now I know attacking/ positive is favoured mentality. But will tweak downloaded ones.
Anybody else feel they get to many set piece goals and have tweaked?
1
I hear ya bro and appreciate the answer.
I have never downloaded a tactic to play all season but you sell the idea in a sweet way, so maybe i will give it a try and save my ass some hours that can be used to find players.
I guess i can tweak anything at anytime so that helps and keeps it flexible.
2020-07-09 18:01#275925 Spanners :
I hear ya bro and appreciate the answer.
I have never downloaded a tactic to play all season but you sell the idea in a sweet way, so maybe i will give it a try and save my ass some hours that can be used to find players.
I guess i can tweak anything at anytime so that helps and keeps it flexible.
When i tweak a tactic, i like to strip it down. So i like to remove some instructions that i know would not work with my team and then change things to make it suitable for my team.
downloaded tactics are a good thing but i always advice to tweak. Would be nice if someone could explain what instructions do so people can understand what to tweak
@RDF Tactics,
Tweaking is defo the way, I found with Beowulf that my IWBs were losing the ball lots and then from the resulting counter opposition were getting a lot of1 on1s. So got rid of 'dribble more' and 'take more risks' fir the weaker IWB and only used it for stronger IWB against weaker sides.
Sometimes even when I have their main man on 'marked tight', pressing always and onto weaker foot, my defence will go nowhere near him. It boils my piss, any ideas where I'm going wrong in this situation ? Sometimes I feel like I end up pressing their whole team and showing onto weaker foot, is this a stupid thing to do?
I've found the same thing. Having a tactic that starts like a house on fire but after about a season suddenly collapses to the point where sometimes it can be completely unusable. Probably the only part of this game I can say I truly don't like. Probably the most frustrating thing about this game for me. I'd be too easy for this game if you could have a tactic that just worked for years and years with no need to change or adapt but I think there needs to be a happy medium where your tactic has a more gradual, noticeable decline, instead of just going into a new season or the next game and the tactic just doesn't work at all after that point. Can sometimes make this game really unenjoyable for me. I know its realistic, the game would be boring and too easy otherwise without it, but just makes the game so difficult and frustrating to the point where sometimes I just don't touch it for days cause I can't be bothered to have the same nonsense happen to me over and over again. I know there are definitely people who enjoy this aspect of the game a lot, keeps it interesting, but it just isn't for me.
Regarding people who test tactics a lot of the time they test with good teams (Liverpool, Barca, Bayern, etc.) which is little use for most people as you could just plug in the default gegenpress or vertical tiki-taka and have a fair bit of success anyway. I had a save where I everything bar the FA Cup with Liverpool in my first season,and if I can do it, anyone with that team can. Basically tests with already good teams aren't much help for seeing if a tactic is good. I also have a feeling, no evidence to prove this, but a lot of people test a tactic while holidaying through a season, so not actually playing the games through themselves, and I have nothing to back this up, but it does always seem to me that a team will do far better through holidayed games rather than played games, if that makes sense, which if I am right could mean that holidayed tests are a bit of a false representation of how good a tactic is.
I am kind of skeptical to the idea that the game doesn't learn to combat a certain tactic. Even if it is only a slight factor, there are definitely others for why a tactic no longer works, I'm pretty sure it must be in the game. Of course teams get better with better players and better managers but I do find I lose to teams who have poorer players than I do with a less than inspiring manager and my tactic doesn't seem to find a way through even then. Obviously this can most of the time fall on me, but sometimes you can feel as if you've been 'Fmd', if you do believe in such a thing. One way in which you can feel as if you've been Fmd when you definitely haven't been however is the change in a teams stature/standing. I have an Everton save and for the first 2 seasons played with a fast counter attacking that got me 4th, 3rd and both domestic cups in the second season. However, as my teams stature rose significantly that style of play no longer suited a team that was expected to be successful and lead to many low scoring games and draws against teams I should have beaten easily, as being a counter attacking side that was expected to be quite dominant clearly didn't match.
On the entire issue of your defense going nowhere near opposition attackers when marking tight and whatever else you have on opposition instructions I just think this is how the game works. If it makes you feel any better it boils my piss too. It could be to do with team shape, if full backs on overlap they'll leave space in behind and may not be able to catch up with opposition attackers because of how high up the pitch they are and a narrow defensive shape could essentially do the same. One thing I've noticed is that if your playing a team with overlapping full backs, if you mark their winger, you have to mark their full back as well as otherwise they could find far too much space if they aren't set to be marked or if you know your wingers won't keep close to them. I haven't ever really tried pressing a whole team or showing them onto their weak foot so I can't be much help on that front I'm afraid.
Shutting down teams with crazy attacking full backs is a skill in itself, a bloody nightmare at times. You have to drop you wingers from att mid to mid strata to deal with them usually. A flat 4 across the middle & defend the widest. That usually nullifies them (& yourself).
2020-07-09 20:20#275938 lfcfan1892ph :
I've found the same thing. Having a tactic that starts like a house on fire but after about a season suddenly collapses to the point where sometimes it can be completely unusable. Probably the only part of this game I can say I truly don't like. Probably the most frustrating thing about this game for me. I'd be too easy for this game if you could have a tactic that just worked for years and years with no need to change or adapt but I think there needs to be a happy medium where your tactic has a more gradual, noticeable decline, instead of just going into a new season or the next game and the tactic just doesn't work at all after that point. Can sometimes make this game really unenjoyable for me. I know its realistic, the game would be boring and too easy otherwise without it, but just makes the game so difficult and frustrating to the point where sometimes I just don't touch it for days cause I can't be bothered to have the same nonsense happen to me over and over again. I know there are definitely people who enjoy this aspect of the game a lot, keeps it interesting, but it just isn't for me.
Regarding people who test tactics a lot of the time they test with good teams (Liverpool, Barca, Bayern, etc.) which is little use for most people as you could just plug in the default gegenpress or vertical tiki-taka and have a fair bit of success anyway. I had a save where I everything bar the FA Cup with Liverpool in my first season,and if I can do it, anyone with that team can. Basically tests with already good teams aren't much help for seeing if a tactic is good. I also have a feeling, no evidence to prove this, but a lot of people test a tactic while holidaying through a season, so not actually playing the games through themselves, and I have nothing to back this up, but it does always seem to me that a team will do far better through holidayed games rather than played games, if that makes sense, which if I am right could mean that holidayed tests are a bit of a false representation of how good a tactic is.
I am kind of skeptical to the idea that the game doesn't learn to combat a certain tactic. Even if it is only a slight factor, there are definitely others for why a tactic no longer works, I'm pretty sure it must be in the game. Of course teams get better with better players and better managers but I do find I lose to teams who have poorer players than I do with a less than inspiring manager and my tactic doesn't seem to find a way through even then. Obviously this can most of the time fall on me, but sometimes you can feel as if you've been 'Fmd', if you do believe in such a thing. One way in which you can feel as if you've been Fmd when you definitely haven't been however is the change in a teams stature/standing. I have an Everton save and for the first 2 seasons played with a fast counter attacking that got me 4th, 3rd and both domestic cups in the second season. However, as my teams stature rose significantly that style of play no longer suited a team that was expected to be successful and lead to many low scoring games and draws against teams I should have beaten easily, as being a counter attacking side that was expected to be quite dominant clearly didn't match.
On the entire issue of your defense going nowhere near opposition attackers when marking tight and whatever else you have on opposition instructions I just think this is how the game works. If it makes you feel any better it boils my piss too. It could be to do with team shape, if full backs on overlap they'll leave space in behind and may not be able to catch up with opposition attackers because of how high up the pitch they are and a narrow defensive shape could essentially do the same. One thing I've noticed is that if your playing a team with overlapping full backs, if you mark their winger, you have to mark their full back as well as otherwise they could find far too much space if they aren't set to be marked or if you know your wingers won't keep close to them. I haven't ever really tried pressing a whole team or showing them onto their weak foot so I can't be much help on that front I'm afraid.
I suppose you could use the Man C analogy few sessions ago they stormed it and now teams have worked out how to nullify them.
Think you might be right re: the narrower defence and certainly it is because of the higher defensive line. But last season I conceded maybe 10 goals all season that were almost a hit and hope through ball from opposition, now it's bordering on every game.
So maybe AI has figured out gore to nullify tactic, as have started games with lower defensive lines. But usually concede, normally after dominating proceedings having had 10 shots or so (granted not all on target) for them to punt one, first shot on target and 1 goal. Then no matter what you try time seems to tick away for the 90 mins and they get a 1-0 win when they'd had 2 shots on target and ive have bout 15.
Perfect example as Ivory Coast manager against SA in African nations final, I had over 45 shots, 20odd on target to their 5 and they won 3-0 2 set pieces and one over the top. Not sure if it was pre match press conference which I always refrain from being cocky/hyping our chances affected moral. Needless to say I forgot to save it.
I would see it more a case of the opposition has adjusted to your reputation as a team improving and are treating you with more respect. As a result they are setting up against you with more a defensive mentality & are sitting deeper potentially, both formation & TI's wise, and are playing more of a counter style against you then previous.
As a result of the above you're previous uber attacking tactic isn't as successful and you need to adjust by maybe not being as attacking so to draw them out of their defensive shell. Try lowering your lines of engagement so you press later, concede a little ground/possession & bring them on to you.
Or perhaps you need to alter your in possession TI's a little to find another way to break them down. If you are fast tempo with short passing for example then slow the tempo but go more direct maybe. Try focusing down one wing for 15mins and then the other wing, find a way to break them down.
Edit - Einstein's rumoured quote on definition of madness - Doing the same thing over & over again & expecting a different result.
2020-07-09 22:55#275945 Si49 :
I would see it more a case of the opposition has adjusted to your reputation as a team improving and are treating you with more respect. As a result they are setting up against you with more a defensive mentality & are sitting deeper potentially, both formation & TI's wise, and are playing more of a counter style against you then previous.
As a result of the above you're previous uber attacking tactic isn't as successful and you need to adjust by maybe not being as attacking so to draw them out of their defensive shell. Try lowering your lines of engagement so you press later, concede a little ground/possession & bring them on to you.
Or perhaps you need to alter your in possession TI's a little to find another way to break them down. If you are fast tempo with short passing for example then slow the tempo but go more direct maybe. Try focusing down one wing for 15mins and then the other wing, find a way to break them down.
Edit - Einstein's rumoured quote on definition of madness - Doing the same thing over & over again & expecting a different result.
Must admit their is definitely a greater sense of achievement having gotten the results myself. Cheers for the advice, had dinner similar re: dropping line of defence, but fir European games against big teams with one of my own tactics, when playing away, playing standard lions of defense and lower line of engagement with the idea to focus the the pressing more, whether that's how ir works don't know. Had some success with it, best Valencia away in Europa league with Gothenburg to get through quarter finals. Maybe need to have more faith in my own tactics.
I'd sad so yes & if you've done that yourself already to adjust then congratulations as you are seeing the ME correctly.
In the situations you are describing as well I'd say your creative players are more important than your finishing players. There's little point being a great finisher of chances if you aren't getting supply. Rather than looking at how to get your forwards more active, look at getting your midfielders more effective.
There's a rule about the perfect amount of possession in a game. I think it was 65% (could have that number wrong). If you achieve that number the theory is YOU GIVE the oppo enough of the ball to coax them out of any defensively minded set up, you are giving them enough encouragement to attack. This makes your attack all the better for it as you have enough of the ball & the room to make it effective. I've highlighted you give above for a reason, you are controlling their possession. You are conceding enough territory without bringing danger on yourself to make your team more effective.
A saying by the legend John Madden from American Football. Something along the lines of (I may well completely butcher this here please note) - "If you can make the opposition do something they think they thought up themselves then you have them really fooled".
