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FM 2012 DEMO Talk

Talk about the demo
Started on 7 October 2011 by RedArmy20
Latest Reply on 20 October 2011 by Zonnegod
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# JI123 : ryan babel has a worldwide rep.
that speaks for itself

What do you mean?


On topic:

After completing the half-season demo of fm2012, I have to say that I am quite satisfied with the game overall. The feature I like most (even though I haven't tried it) is that you can add new nations after starting your game. Sometimes I only pick a few nations because I don't want to slow down my game, but regret that I didn't choose some nations. On the other hand I sometimes regret adding too many nations as it slows down the game. This new features will enable players to adjust it during a game :)

Though I haven't seen the new regens yet, I have to admit that I am a bit disappointed with the new youth system. I didn't really see any big additions in this field, apart from the possibility to improve some new youngster academy thing or so in the boardroom..
A few features I really don't like about regens are:

1) The fact that regens sometimes appear at higher ages. I had one AMAZING player, but he was 21 (!!) when he generated. I think it is just a shame that you are unable to sign the players at a very young age and adjust their play style to your team.

2) Add a youth academy. Despite the fact that you already 'have' a youth academy in FM, you cannot do anything with it, and improving it does not seem to improve the kind of regens you will get. This would work perfectly together with my first point, as the young regens could flow into this academy and can then be funneled through your U19s team to your first team.

3) Recruitment-feeder teams. I don't know what to do with them. I have never gotten any good regens from feeder teams.

4) Tutoring. Why are you only allowed to tutor a youngster once? And only for a few months? Robin van Persie, for example, was tutored by Dennis Bergkamp at Arsenal all the time until Bergkamp retired and I am sure this was a great benefit to his game. I want to have more influence tutoring, and especially make me able to change tutoring easily. At the moment, you have to wait until the tutoring is over and then wait for the option to appear again, until you can ask the older player to tutor another youngster.

5) Transfers. We haven't been able to try an entire season yet, and therefore not been able to experience a full-money transfer window (since in the first year you only get a bit of the normal transfer money), so I hope this will be improved in fm2012: transfers happen too little. SI needs to add some kind of catalyst to the transfers, as they definitely do not reflect real world transfers. Big transfers should happen more often and for some reason, there are certain players who seem to never leave their clubs, whereas in real life it is rare for players to play almost their entire career at one club. This might have to do with my following point.

6) SI, whyyy did you not remove the "I do not want to go into contract negotiations"?! It appears WAY too often. In real football, almost every player is willing to go to another club, once his club has accepted the transfer offer (Even a big player like Eto'o went to Russia!). In football manager, on the other hand, it often seems to be impossible to sign players unless you already have a massive reputation. In real life, players take into account the expected increase in reputation of clubs. Examples of these clubs are Malaga, Man City and Anji. Because players knew/know that these clubs would/will greatly approve in stature in the following years, they decided to take the money and help to bring the club to the top. Also rival-transfers seem to be nonexistent in FM, which makes it very tough to do transfers in competitions where all the top teams are each others rivals.. Maybe in Spain the rivalry between Real and Barca is big enough to prevent transfers, but certainly not in my country where every team will sell their players to their rivals, as long as there is enough money coming from the other direction ;) To recap, feature is really a game-ruiner for me, especially when you just KNOW that a player would go to your club if they would see your offer...

7) Potential Ability. If you think about it, PA makes no sense at all. Even though physical aspects of a player might have their capacity, this surely doesn't go for technical and mental attributes, let alone some artificial cap for their "Overall skill". What you see now in FM, is that players progress rapidly until their 22nd or so (differs from player to player) and then stop completely with progressing.

I think Potential ability should be removed as a whole and be replaced by a form of dynamic "Progress Rate" that limits the speed at which players progress and will be overtaken by the downgrade once a player becomes too old. This progress rate should be similar to the progress rate that is already in FM, but it should be more dynamic, as it currently strongly depends on the stats "ambition" and "Professionalism" which are completely static.

By removing PA, scouts will be unable to "See into the future" and predict how good players will become, but will only be able to see the current ability of a player, their personality and how well the player would fit into your team. This would make FM much more realistic.

In short: the current progress rate system is okay (but could use some improvements), as long as a players CA does not come near it's PA. Because, when that happens, some invisible barrier prevents him from improving. This barrier could be removed by making the progress rate much more dynamic and letting it be overtaken by the physical downgrade once a player becomes older. This would also make scouting more realistic.

Another great benefit of this feature is that essentially, every player can become a star, as long as he has the motivation and gets the opportunity to improve greatly. These factors should be balanced such that the amount of star players will reflect the real world and not become outrageously large, of course. :P

8) Current ability. No I am not suggesting for current ability to be removed, but I think there can be some improvements. As it is way too static. Take for example Kaká. He used to be extremely good, but at Real he was unable to reach his previous level. To compensate this, SI lowered his current ability in FM. So imagine that Kaká suddenly gets his old form back (which is quite possible if you see how he is performing lately). Then how could this happen in FM? No you are right, it can't! Because CA cannot change that quickly in FM.

I think this is a real shame, and it should be considered to add a new feature such that players are able to have a "dip" or "great run of form", after which they get back to their previous form. This could be done by either brining a bigger role for "form" or making CA much more flexible.


Sorry for the wall of text guys! I didn't think it would become as long :P I would like to hear your opinions on these points!
@Zonnegod

I agree with most of your points, it is annoying when regens are created at age 20/21 but it only seems to be in non-EU or Scandinavian nations while every English regen appears aged 15 or 16, I think it might have something to do with whether clubs have viewable youth teams.

Academies and feeder teams are pretty useless in their current state except affiliations for work permit purposes.

I'm satisfied with the way tutoring works and especially like to use it in conjunction with genie scout since tutoring alters the hidden personality attributes and these can only be seen in a program like GS. The only problem I have with tutoring from FM11 (haven't yet played around with it in FM12) is how a player can't be tutored or tutor at ages 22 and 23 and also that a senior player can't be asked to tutor again within 6 months of being asked even if the tutoring was cancelled only 1 day after setting it up.

I'm alright with the state of transfers but I agree with what you say about contracts and players not even being willing to discuss terms, there should at least be an option to convince a high rep player that your club is going places and other options to coax him into negotiating.

I'm mostly ok with PA and CA, like you said, ambition and professionalism are the key attributes in getting a high PA regen to reach his full potential, however these attributes aren't completely static and can be changed through tutoring.

I reckon altering PA system to your suggestion would make it too easy to create world class players since all regens would have that potential, it would be like setting every regens PA to 200 and letting the other factors such as training, match practice and professionalism/ambition affect whether they reach it or not, you could turn your entire clubs starting youth team into world beaters. With the current system its very rewarding when you turn a half star CA rated regen into a world player of the year.

I do agree that CA could be more flexible and perhaps should be affected quite severely by form and morale, players are too consistent each season in FM over many years, the same top strikers score 20+ goals EVERY season and this just doesn't happen as often in real life.

Some great points you make and an interesting post. :D
I think the overall feel is great, and i love the new grafix in the games. But the game seems a litle easier than 2011 version, anyone agree to that?? ;)
@Evo

I'm not sure exactly how the regen's ages are decided, but I think they should just all be brought in at a very young age.

I wasn't aware that personality attributes could be changed by tutoring, but still I think that tutoring should be similar to "Training focus", so you can easily handle your tutoring at any time.

Another problem I often find with transfers is that other clubs sometimes don't seem to be interested in players, even if you put their asking value extremely low. As well as the problem that other clubs rarely seem to offer decent fees for your players. I am currently managing a club that went from a second division and is now in the champions league and basically all my players are being followed by top teams all over europe. But for some weird reason, they don't want to make offers anywhere NEAR the players value.

Also, good loans seem to be much more difficult to set up as players often don't want to go to clubs where they can get playtime.. I have never seen a club making a decent offer to loan my player, but only shitty clubs who don't want to pay their salary and want to put my player on the bench..

I think you missed an important point of my PA removal. The reason I want PA to be removed is because it gives players some sort of invisible ceiling that they cannot breach (which is completely unrealistic). The removal of PA would not make it easier to make world class players out of every person, as the progress rate should not be high enough for every player to reach the top.

Maybe it is different for you, but I often have players around their 22nd who already reached their PA of 130-140 and then become completely useless once your club goes forward while they can no longer improve..

In short: All regens should indeed have the THEORETIC potential to become a world class player, but it should be the (very) difficult task of the manager to ensure that the player comes anywhere near this potential.

Thank you for your response! :)
Selling players can be difficult especially if they're on high wages, I tried to get rid of Heskey on the demo who is on 60K pw, no-one would make an offer even though his asking price was £0... But then maybe Heskey isn't a good example of someone who should be easy to get rid of for free.

I'm not sure whether an invisible ceiling is completely unrealistic, many footballers IRL reach certain levels of ability and then don't improve enough to play at higher levels. It could be a bit more flexible because the "invisible ceiling" can be a little obvious and frustrating, but I think it works well. I also find that players usually improve past age 22. I always see age 24 as the year: if he doesn't hit his full PA this year he never will.
Must say that i disagree with most of you guys. I just finished playing with Barca 1/1-12... Its great!!! The overview is really useful once you get use to it!! Cant wait till the 21.!!! The only negativ thing is the small bug in the game (most of the disapear once you reload the game)... Cheers
JI123's avatar Group JI123
9 yearsEdited
Zonnegod:


What do you mean?



When you go intoh is profile to his information it says his reputation is worldwide.
Evo SAYS

Having just completed the demo I must admit I'm looking forward to getting the full version of football manager 2012 when it comes out. I managed Villa for 6 months and was surprised to finish the demo in 5th place and only 5 points off the top of the table, I'm not sure whether the game is getting easier like others have said or whether I'm getting better at it... I prefer to think the latter.

Game is easier on demo mode mate i've went Scotland and won every game i've played 3-1 vs Denmark 2-1 vs Czech 4-0 vs Lithuania all at home and 0-5 vs Liechtenstein and 0-3 vs Spain away from home qualified for the Euros as best placed runners up would never happen in full version of the game i think they make it a bit easier so the casual player will enjoy it more and maybe buy it
:( Thanks for bursting my happy little bubble... OR, maybe your getting better at FM too... Yes that must be it. :D
# POPeye38 : I think the overall feel is great, and i love the new grafix in the games. But the game seems a litle easier than 2011 version, anyone agree to that?? ;)
the game is unreal,and yes far to easssssssssy,my 8yr old boy can win everygame on this demo,
The demo is only there to entice people to buy it. If it was too difficult people wouldnt buy it.
I like the new contract negotiations and they gave me a good laugh too. I played as arsenal and had a £25 offer for tevez accepted, he want 300K a week 12m loyalty and 20m agent fees along with everything else. I locked him at 120k a week and 5m loylty but only offer 3m for agent but didnt lock that. Everything was accepted but the agent wanted 20m still so i locked it a 5m so he pulled out of the deal cause I wouldnt pay him enough

Funny how realistic it is that the player is happy with everything but I cant sign him cause his agent wont earn enough

Did anyone else have this problem?
# bigrich : I like the new contract negotiations and they gave me a good laugh too. I played as arsenal and had a £25 offer for tevez accepted, he want 300K a week 12m loyalty and 20m agent fees along with everything else. I locked him at 120k a week and 5m loylty but only offer 3m for agent but didnt lock that. Everything was accepted but the agent wanted 20m still so i locked it a 5m so he pulled out of the deal cause I wouldnt pay him enough

Funny how realistic it is that the player is happy with everything but I cant sign him cause his agent wont earn enough

Did anyone else have this problem?

It's not a bug or so. You are negotiating with the agent, not with the player. The agent first has to accept the offer and after that he will bring it to the player who also has to accept it. So I doubt that Tevez would have accepted if he found out he was going to be paid 25 pounds a week :P

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